Zlatan Meanwhile, is Saying at Least Vaguely Nice Things

MAD, I can see we are never going to see eye-to-eye on this one *grins* - and I do realise that I am one lone, hopelessly naive/idealistic/outdated/whatever voice in the midst of the money-driven world of modern football. World's getting smaller, and all that jazz. Doesn't help that I've been re-reading a lot about Superga recently; when clubs were pretty much wholly made up of nationals.

I dunno, it just makes me a little sad, I suppose. Mind you, not enough to send Kaka/Pato/Gourcuff/Seedorf back whence they came... ;)

Ruby: Eeeeeer, yes? Inter is an Italian team... I mean they play in Italy (I THINK Milan is in Italy...:)) One of the "rebels" who split from the English ex-pat cabal who began AC Milan is an Italian... The stadium that they play in is named after an Italian who played for Inter... Inter seems to be covered in all the Italian dailies... Are you seriously trying to gauge the level of Italian-ness of a football team? I mean they are celebrating the 100th year of their existence this year...er in Milan, Italy, right? :)

By the way, (and this is a little beside the point, but pertinent in a funny way) many Italians feel that the other half of the peninsula, geographically of course, aren't exactly Italians anyway. The north half view the south half as, shall we say, a little slow and rural. The southern half thinks the northerners are a bunch of city dwelling, blonde German half-breeds who actually speak "Italian" anyway. So, whose an Italian exactly?

If YOU feel that international players shouldn't make up an entire squad that's great, and you have every right to do so. But if you do, feel free to also be upset that the fans of Inter, the club officials and probably the players may not agree with you.

In this case I am not sympathetic. Inter, like all teams have the obligation to their fans to field the best team that are able. If, in this case it requires all interenational players on the team, so be it. I have the luxury and the good sense, I think although it was rough for a while there, to only root for those teams that will do what they can to make the best team possible. Some teams just stive to save money and dump salary when they can. Some teams have a strict budget and will not go one euro over. Some teams will try to do everything they can, legally. Most of the time, I feel that team is Inter.

Others can gripe and moan, but the bottem line is that it works. And that is a hallmark of Serie A and Italian football.

MAD, not my back comments.

And if you did, you'd have fewer questions to ask and more answers.

MAD, 'Inter is an Italian team'? But my point is, that if there are NO Italians in the outfield there's a bit of a blur over how Italian that team is, surely?

International players do make a team stronger, I just feel that they should not make up the entire squad...

(And yes, I do moan just as much about the lack of English players in English teams. I have been brought up in an Arsenal-loving family, and am frequently having this same discussion with my father *grin*)

"Well, MAD, then maybe you should spend more time reading back comments than figuring out what words to capitalize."

Why should I? You have nothing but scorn for my team, the way Serie A does business and readers who have recently just found this place, apparently. Why should I subject myself to the negativity?

No, I think I'll just capitalize as I feel necessary and if YOU don't like it, you can ban me if you want. Just for the record, it doesn't take me very long to figure out which words to capitalize. As a means of comparison, it takes me about as long as it takes me to read a bunch of tripe

Well, MAD, then maybe you should spend more time reading back comments than figuring out what words to capitalize.

I think it's a matter of balance. Inter's philosophy has always been more egalitarian and cash-happy, so for a long time they were the Real to Milan's local, class-bound Atleti [Funny how the trophy cabinet doesn't reflect that at all, fnar fnar]. I don't know what to think about their dedicated pursuit of foreign talent at the expense of homegrown players - beyond that the first is good but the second is bad - but for me, it means a lot that they have the sort of pulling power and insane, galactic outlook that contributes to the league's marketability. I'm not expressing this very well, I know, but Serie A needs its Inter as much [but never more] than it needs its Fiorentina.

I like the fact that if, tomorrow, Platini's mad rules came in to force and foreign players were severely limited in Europe, Serie A would be the least badly hit of all the top three. Italy has a fantastic youth program that has proven very tough to break down in the face of evil foreign $$$, and that looks set to continue. They'll win another World Cup before England get their second.

I do think both Inter and Milan have extremely dumb youth programs, and that needs to change yesterday.

Also, completely agree that this is not the Derby dell' Italia. The Derby dell' Italia is played between two teams that have never been relegated below Serie A in their entire history, and tonight Inter are playing against a promoted side.

Kill them, Zlatan.

Ruby: If you want to count this last WC team, you have to count them all, all the way back to the first one. I think you will find that Inter is more than represented. I am not denying the number of any other team to be represented. I am just saying that for a team that is sooooooooo under-represented by Italians we had one player for sure ( I am blanking on Grosso, I think he belonged to Inter but was loaned out the season of the WC)

Chris: "I like the 4-5 on the field at all times"

I am still unclear why YOU get to decide how many (if any) internationals get to play for anyone. What is the problem? Is it because the team you follow hasn't the budget of Inter and you are upset that they get to field competative teams (just fishing here, I have no idea which team you follow)?

"As far as what it would take for me to see this as less of a black eye on the league, I really don’t know"

International players are not a black eye on the league, at least not to me. CHEATING is a black eye on the league. International players make the league stronger, in my opinion.

"But to have the Derby d’Italia with one team having zero Italians on the outfield roster is ludicrous"

The derby is between two TEAMS not twenty players. YOU may find this ludicrous but I do not. Inter is an Italian team and has been for 100 years. They play in an Italian League and have for 100 years. The actual make-up of the players isn't going to change that.

Do you gripe about how the Green Bay Packers do not actually have anyone who is from Green Bay? Or that there is only one player for the Dallas Cowboys who is from Dallas? I doubt it. Do you whine that the Yankees and Red Sox rarely carry players from their own system? I suspect that the issue here isn't national pride, eh, "Chris" (and yet somehow not Cris...) but jealousy that your team can't pay for the internationals, perhaps?

Oh, by the way, it seems to be working fine for them and the league...

"Mancini repeatedly says (in spite of your attempts at obscuring his comments), the teams with good Italian players don’t want to sell them."

Last time I checked, they have a youth team - and a good one (Chivu-Barzagli aside - which is a relevant example since Andrea was the alternative, but whatever - sell Andreolli? The top young CB in the boot when all it took was a couple extra million?). And Juve, Milan, Roma and Fiorentina seem to acquire good Italian players - and he can outbid all of them. Like I said, this is all a cop out. Nothing more. I understand Moratti isn't bright enough to realize most of this. But someone in that organization must be.

The answer has been proposed, and is simple: minimum requirement for nationals. I like the 4-5 on the field at all times, but that'd be difficult to implement. As far as what it would take for me to see this as less of a black eye on the league, I really don't know. Maybe 3? But to have the Derby d'Italia with one team having zero Italians on the outfield roster is ludicrous.

And Martha, I think you're going to have to give Fiorentina a few more years before deciding whether or not this youth, youth, youth thing is working. It's far too early in the process to crown them as a model organization. (Especially when last year they were led by Toni, Mutu, Jorgensen, Liverani, Dainelli, Ujfalusi and Frey - all far from babies. They had a couple, but they were by no means a "youth" team.)

tmc, to answer your 'how many' question; yes, I do think there should be a clear-cut arrangement. For me, I think there should be at least three nationals in a starting line-up. In an ideal world I'd go for four or five, but realise that may be a little idealistic.

And it's not just about teams I don't like, I promise. I hate it just as much in my own team *grin*

This is an interesting discussion, and I side with Martha, but we've touched on this before. My question for Chris and the others clamoring for more Italians on teams they don't like is this - How many Italians are necessary so a mockery (in your eyes) is not made out of the scudetto? Do you support a requirement for a certain number of Italians on the pitch at a particular time? I'm not trying to be flip about this - I'm just curious as to what people think on this matter.

One option is the way MLS is structured - there are a limited number of senior international players and youth international players that a team can have on the roster. I don't know the exact numbers off of the top of my head.

To me, whether or not we are being idealistic and would like to see Italians on Italian club teams, or French players on French clubs, the fact of the matter is that there is too much money involved and the tide has turned in world football so we are going to see a more and more international flavor to club rosters.

chris, I think you're confusing the issue. No one ever said Inter were transfer market experts. They make bad moves all the time. But in many instances, Italian players are overpriced and foreign players are cheaper alternatives (how much did Valencia pay for Tavano?). Chivu and Barzagli make for a terrible comparison because they are vastly different types of players.

Even if we pretend that this is a valid issue, I've no feasible idea for how Inter should fix it, and I don't believe you do either. Whom exactly should Inter sign? The reality is, as Mancini repeatedly says (in spite of your attempts at obscuring his comments), the teams with good Italian players don't want to sell them. And in some cases (e.g. Grosso), they prove not as good as other players.

Unless Inter's links with young players like Dessena are true, I don't see the 'situation' changing except maybe for bringing back co-owned players like Aquafresca or Andreolli, or maybe if the youth academy comes through with Balotelli and others.

And as for representing a country, what exactly are national teams for?

Where does it say it's about representing a country, though? It's about winning, that's all. Owners and teams go about it in different ways; I would certainly never say the way Inter do it is the best -- personally, I love Fiorentina's style of youth, youth, youth, Italian and other -- but it's what they DO, and it worked last year (so, they get the shield).

That 'budget' thing is absurd and a complete BS argument after the fact, not a preventative economic measure. It's a rare occurrence to see an Italian even linked with Inter. Moratti is laying on the BS thick, and I don't think anyone buys it for a second.

If you believe for one second that Chivu at 16m, while losing Andreolli, is a better buy than Barzagli at 14m over the next 2-3 years...then I don't know what to tell you. But you're drinking some seriously tainted kool-aid.

And this isn't about idealism, though it's certainly an aspect. Quite simply, it's about representing a country. It's an embarrassment to the shield that the "champion" fails to represent that shield. That's not idealism. That's reality.

It must be really sad for you guys that Grosso left Italy in France.

Martha, I'm prepared to accept that I am being extremely idealistic and old fashioned, but that is what I genuinely feel. And I hope you believe me that it makes no difference to me whether it's Inter or anyone else - I have a small grumble every time Galliani brings in another bleedin' Brazilian. I dunno, it's kind of a matter of national pride. At root, clubs are an English/Italian/German/whatever team - the national thing is always brought up during club competitions (certainly over here where all commentators expect every English person to root for the Premiership teams in the CL *grin*) , and I feel that should be reflected in their squads. I'm not naive enough to ask for the moon, but a handful would be nice.

As for the Azzurri-abroad thing, well, I've already moaned about that at length. And no, I don't blame Inter for it and never have done. It just saddens me.

*crawls back into cocoon*

I agree with much of what MAD and Inara are saying. Especially important to consider that it's actually because of the 'budget' that Inter have had to import so much, in order to afford the talent necessary to maintain Inter's standard. Moratti has even said that a reason he likes signing Argentines (compared to Italians) is that they are cheaper. Maybe this wouldn't be the case if people didn't make such a big deal about nationality, thus inflating the transfer values of Italian players.

And if this truly bothers Chris so much, maybe we can arrange De Rossi and Aquiliani transfers to Inter...

The thing is, football is a business. And if ownership thinks the best way to be successful (Read: Trophies and money, which tend to follow each other) is to buy talent from abroad, I don't see why they shouldn't be able to do that, as long as it's allowed within the rules.

Ruby, I admire your idealism, but I don't see why being based in a particular country means your players have to be from that country. It's a wonderful thought, but outdated, I think. (And, really, I don't say this just because I like Inter. As Chris say, I not so secretly also like Torino, who are about 95% Italian, with the odd Aussie, Recoba and Frenchman thrown in.)

And as Inara says, members of the World Cup team are moving outside Italy increasingly, which I can't construe as Inter's fault, no matter how much you hate them. (I also like the tax idea -- they do something similar in American baseball, albeit not to do with foreigners, in order to redistribute the wealth of the big clubs.)

*grins* MAD, you want to count players in WC squads? We had five last time around. And I seem to recall one of them winning MoM more often than not...

I do see your point, and agree that it's impractical to have a wholly domestic squad, but I also feel that there should a restriction on stranieri in any club side. All for compromise, me!

I'm pretty sure most people on the Italy side of the Offside have no love for Michel Platini or Sepp Blatter, but I like the fact that Platini wants to prevent foreign owners and trying to tighten UEFA's rule on homegrown players rule. It might have no chance, but Blatter did forward a proposal that would mean every team has to have six nationals in the starting XI.

I don't think you can criticize Inter without criticizing the fact that clubs find it very easy to import cheaper talent from abroad. Yeah Italy might have a great NT, but that's only 22 players for the top five best Serie A clubs, and a lot of them no longer want to stay in Italy anyway. So that leaves either depending on homegrown players (which is a crapshoot at best) or stealing prospects from smaller Italian clubs (which means they are inexperienced at the top level). Hence clubs preferring talent abroad.

So maybe clubs could to pay a tax on foreign nationals, which would force them to pay more attention to their academies.

Hmmmm...

Inter: Split away from a team founded by foreigners (!) so that deserving (read: great players blackballed by hypocritical English ex-pats and other Italian teams) internationals (hence the name) can play in Italy making football in Italy stronger for the diversity and win scads of trophies.

All other teams in Italy: Over the years in an effort to keep up with the Scudetti and international honors of Inter in the 60's and 70's, blatently and cynnically reject (did I mention hypocrasy? I forget...) all of their ethnocentric bigotry and open their teams and borders to foreign nationals to play in Italy, just when it becomes apparent that they will be left in the dust if they don't...

(jeez, I wonder if Italian players routinely playing against the best players in the world, who are welcomed into their country, in everyday league play, will be better prepared for international play someday...)

By the way, I had a great little chuckle about the budget thing! Feel free to count up the number of Inter players in each of the World Cup finals teams of Italy. Including the last one. I think we had a guy who played pretty well in the final game of the tournament.

On a related note, Milan is rumored to be after some brazilian player who plays in Spain after making another brazilain player the richest football player in the country...

I have to say I agree with Chris on this, Martha - and not just because it's Inter. OK, it's understandable for teams to want the best players they can afford, but surely there's a moral repsonsibility to ensure that a reasonable proportion of those players are home-grown? Admittedly, it's not done Empoli that much good this season *grin*, but I really, truly, strongly believe that a good half of the starting line-up should be the nationality of the club. And yes, Arsene Wenger, I'm looking at you too.

I know I've banged on about it at length before, but it's bloody important, dammit. I have a vague recollection of reading somewhere that the regs were going to change regarding foreign nationals in club line-ups, and I hope with all my heart that it comes to pass.

*gets down off soapbox and gets back to biting nails for tonight*

chris. internazionale di milano(an i state their entire name for an obvious reason) was formed by foreigners who went getting playing time at ac milan. italians got preference back then over non-italians. so seriously i think its a great thing that they have only a few italians on the side. they stay true to their roots!!! and you cant hate on that can you? didnt think so...

And I don't mean to attack you. I can't hate you, you're the only person I know who secretly likes Torino as much as I do.

Thanks Chris for stating the feelings my friends and I share regarding Inter's roster more concisely than I could have.

It does bother me, for some reason. And no, teams wouldn't do that if they had the same budget - just look at Juventus and Milan, who have similar budgets and employ at least 5 Italians in their starting lineups alone. It's called pride. Moratti obviously has none.

And the last time I checked, the Azzurri are still World Champions, and still have some of "the best players they can afford".

I agree with you Kirby. I feel like a sucker because he's seemed happy before and suddenly turned into a nightmare, but he strikes me as incredibly comfortable with Inter.

And Chris, does it really bother you that much? I realize you're not alone, but I don't really get why people get so upset about int'l rosters. It's legal, teams want the best players they can afford. Buying foreigners is how Inter do it, it's how Arsenal do it (though they get them as infants), it's how the Russian teams that are all Brazilian do it. They make a totally legal choice, and it's hard for me to believe that the teams that complain wouldn't do the same if they suddenly had the same budgets.

Wow. I just saw the squad lists and I'm completely disgusted this is called the Derby d'Italia. Inter doesn't have a single Italian outfield player on the squad. Just wow.

I don't care about points handicaps or won what scudetto. They should feel ashamed to wear the flag on their shirts.

i really and truly believe that zlatan loves life at inter. he is loved and idolized by all the fans there. whereas, at juventus he was hated by a section of them because he relagated alex to the bench. i know that he would love nothing better than to bit those fans in the ass come sunday. an tipping him to sroce at least 2 of inter's goal in the 3-1 win.

Two posts on the game and we're still two days away.

I told you you wouldn't be able to control yourself.