Champions League: Great, More Violence

RT, you're welcome. :)
We definitely agree that Italy need to improve, for the sake of the sport and the fans. I hope Italy succeed in their Euro 2012 bid, but I'm rather pessimistic on that score at the moment-the Rome incident coming so soon after Catania can't help.

Just pulled that out of my feeds as you were posting about it, roswitha -- going to check it out now.

Great blog in the Guardian today about this. The comments are thoughtful and very enlightening, and it's difficult not to acknowledge the criticism levelled at the English media and at Manchester United for representing the situation in an alarmist fashion.

Lisa, I believe we actually agree on most issues, and there is no doubt that calcio has much that can and should be improved. Perhaps Italy really needs to succeed in their Euro 2012 bid (and not blow the opportunity should it arise).

And thanks for the html tip! I was practically heartbroken (kidding) when it didn't come out right, though thankfully someone has since edited it.

ok so were they actually stabbed or just attacked? i never realised how complicated things could get even written in english, i can only imagine Google Translate on this one....

Satine, I think when they said good condition, they were using hospital terminology- good/serious/critical condition. Good condition doesn't necessarily mean what you and I would usually consider good.

RT, for links use HTML, not the [url] format that message boards tend to use. <a href="url here">link text</a> (I hope that shows up correctly, there's no preview, so I can't tell if I'm using the right codes for . Fingers crossed!)

RT, I don't doubt that there are some troublemakers in the
ManUtd fans. There are bound to be a few in any group. And the British authorities try to cut down on that as much as possible by preventing known hooligans from travelling to away matches.

But regardless of that, Roma have had issues with violence against visiting fans from many teams over many years. At some point they have to step up and do something about their problem without worrying about who's on the receiving end this time and pointing the finger at them. And if you'll look at what I said above, I didn't imply that all or even most Roma fans were the problem-I specifically said the violent subset of the Ultras.

About the security/policing, be honest, can you imagine riot police laying into a crowd indiscriminately in an American stadium? I've been to a good number of sports events in Boston, NYC, and Philly over the years. The crowds there can be rowdy and rude, but they don't require riot police at games-because situations are handled by security and normal police long before things get that out of hand. If Roma games require riot police, that's a sign that there is something severely wrong.

ManUtd supporters are over the top to demand a ban on all Italian clubs, particularly as it's hardly as if Italy is alone in having a problem with football-related violence. But they're certainly correct that if the current state of things continues, it's only a matter of time before someone else gets killed.

Call me crazy, Lisa, but when the Guardian said that the injured fans weren't in serious condition I just assumed that they can't mean actual knife wounds. I've never heard of fans being threatened or injured with a knife in Germany and it just seemed so highly unlikely.

And my apologies, as my link to the Man Utd page didn't come out right. I could use a lesson on how to insert one properly (I'm looking at you Lisa!)...

Lisa, my understanding with the Lille incident is that UEFA was concerned with what they called '...improper conduct of their fans at the game, which included the setting-off of fireworks and disturbances at the entrance to the stadium.' While I don't doubt the fears of overcrowding, this statement leads me to suppose there was more than mere 'panic'.

It's not my intention to suggest that Man Utd or English fans are all delinquents, but I don't think it is fair to automatically suggest that the Roma fans were more to blame or that the police simply decided to beat up on Man Utd fans, whom were innocent bystanders or perfect gentlemen (which is the gist I get when reading the English accounts).

I'm seeing now that there were further incidents with the Tottenham Hotspur trip to Sevilla. Just more coincidence? More 'police overreaction' and 'misunderstanding'? Seriously, should Italian teams really be banned,as the Man Utd writer of this site suggests? Or should English fans be prevented from travelling? I think the latter question is at least as fair to ask as the former, though I'd prefer neither, along with fans just freaking behaving already and Italy finally taking a belated step forward in terms of the infrastructure of its sport.

Muddia, apparently there's craziness all over. There was trouble at the Sevilla-Tottenham match in Spain tonight.

But RT also has a good point about the press coverage. I read a quote on bbc from a british ex-pat in Rome who said he saw hundreds of Man-U supporters getting bombed all day from pub to pub bragging about how they were gonna start problems. It might be the worst in Italy, but it seems to be a problem endemic to European football. Wasn't there craziness in Greece not to long ago?

RT, it may not be coincidence, but I'd take it in a different direction than I think you're going-the common denominator in both cases was police overreaction.

In Lille, the ManUtd fans panicked because there was a surge forward in a section that was overcrowded. Many of the travelling fans are old enough to remember stadium disasters where people were crushed to death against the barrier at the front of the spectator areas in old style stadium. When the people at the front started helping vulnerable people climb over the barriers to safety, the police overreacted. It didn't help that part of the police reaction involved slamming the gate to the section shut, which just increased the pressure and the panic.

Part of the problem is also that English fans have a reputation in Europe for hooliganism, and that policing and security are different in France and Italy to what the ManUtd supporters are used to in England, so there's misunderstanding and uncertainty on both sides even before anything goes wrong.

the police definately need to be addressed because this is a very real and serious situation that is very disgraceful to Italian football. I can understand taking diciplinary action if fans are causing problems but if they are just cheering on their team then this behaviour can not be condoned

Clearly the system in Italy has to change as this cannot happen again. Having heavily armoured and uncontrollable police in the visiting portion of the stands was always bound to be disastrous at some point. I understand that the police might be on edge after the Catania incident, yet still no excuse to act like insane thugs. But it'd be a mistake for UEFA to punish Roma for the actions of the police. If I'm not mistaken, it's Italian law that dictates the use of police for security? As dumb as that may be, it is not UEFA's place to influence the laws of a country.

However, I wouldn't argue against Roma being held liable for their fans. But in that case, Man Utd should also be reprimanded. Their supporters have been victimized, but that doesn't make them innocent either, regardless of how the English media tries to frame the incident. And let's not forget that Man Utd were just fined for the behavior of their traveling fans in Lille. Consecutive incidents in two straight continental road trips? I doubt it's a coincidence.

You know, if throwing Italy and Italian clubs out of competition were to make the least bit of difference to the situation at this point, I'd get behind it. It would make my life that much emptier, but this just can't be condoned. I'm aware that this may seem like an overreaction, particularly in view of SpanglyPrincess' very useful insights on the matter. But come on. These guys have the muscle to make FIFA and UEFA dance to their tunes and can't be bothered by violence in their own stadia?

Why football? Why Europe? * shakes head *

Again, simply cannot imagine this happening in any arena in the U.S. where Ron Artest is not present. Not to single out Italy because I know it happens all over the world, but it appears they need real serious changes, real soon.

Oh, excellent, SpanglyPrincess is here. I was hoping she'd have something to say about it. (SP, I found your post yesterday and the discussion in the comments interesting.)

Satine, stabbed is the same in British English as it is in any other English I've encountered, having not seen the article, I'm not sure where the problem is?

It will be interesting to see what UEFA decides to do with this. I realize being in England I'm not exactly getting unbiased commentary from the news media, but it does seem to me that the lion's share of the blame for what happened lies with the violent subset of the Roma Ultras and the bad policing.

Thanks, SP -- I was hoping you would weigh in. I tried to use The Guardian article as much as possible since I consider it a reliable source, but clearly their writers lack familiarity with the system in Italy.

That said, the fact that there are always only stewards in the home sections during international matches seems idiotic -- why the assumption that trouble will only come from away supporters?

Couple of things, seeing as I was there:

there are never police in any of the home sections, only local stewards. By contrast there are always armed military police in the away sections, whether the fans are foreigners or other Italians.

The PA announcements threatening to suspend the match are irrelevant. They made them before the game and again at half time, just like they always do.

The Italian authorities still haven't grasped that their policing is some 30 years behind that in England or even perhaps in Germany. The carabinieri are violent, irrational and frankly dangerous. They regularly beat defenceless fans round the head, indiscriminately teargas crowds, fail to distinguish between bystanders and hooligans etc etc. As far as they're concerned, any matchgoing fan is automatically a legitimate target.

I read the same article and had problems with the word "stabbed", too. Maybe it's (in British English) a more general meaning for being attacked.

Furthermore the Guardian didn't distinguish between being an Ultra and being a Hooligan.

I think the problem is that many curvas are in the hands of the supporter groups in Italy and they didn't do themselves a favour by lifting a few of the imposed bans after Catania. It made the authorities look nonsequential.