Comments on: The Morning After http://italy.theoffside.com/serie-a/the-morning-after.html News from the Italian Serie A Tue, 24 Nov 2009 04:23:18 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Thierry http://italy.theoffside.com/serie-a/the-morning-after.html#comment-26926 Thierry Thu, 15 Nov 2007 22:11:09 +0000 http://italy.theoffside.com/serie-a/the-morning-after.html#comment-26926 First, i beg you pardon if my purpose shocked you, it wasn't my goal, i was just frightened and angry by the increase of violence based on racism or imaginary territoriality, we see in Europe. Lisa, the holocaust was just the result of all a numerous series of europeans violences like this that people had usually forgotten. The analogue for it in USA, if we consider the history of violence in Usa with the apperance of an exterior ennemy(Indians,...,Irak) who menace(help) the cohesion, plus a strong segregation(to keep the ennemy in the exterior borders) who created strong imaginary frontrier would be probably the phenomenon of gang, in my opinion(same territorial mode). In Europe the ennemy in this process of violence is interior or secret. For example the antisemitism in Poland is still very strong despite the few number of jews in it nowadays(65 000). Steven, "You can’t possibly mean something like this?", i talked about Europe during the 30's, of course.(PS Chirac was clearly in the right i promise you, lol) First, i beg you pardon if my purpose shocked you, it wasn’t my goal, i was just frightened and angry by the increase of violence based on racism or imaginary territoriality, we see in Europe.
Lisa, the holocaust was just the result of all a numerous series of europeans violences like this that people had usually forgotten. The analogue for it in USA, if we consider the history of violence in Usa with the apperance of an exterior ennemy(Indians,…,Irak) who menace(help) the cohesion, plus a strong segregation(to keep the ennemy in the exterior borders) who created strong imaginary frontrier would be probably the phenomenon of gang, in my opinion(same territorial mode). In Europe the ennemy in this process of violence is interior or secret. For example the antisemitism in Poland is still very strong despite the few number of jews in it nowadays(65 000).
Steven, “You can’t possibly mean something like this?”, i talked about Europe during the 30’s, of course.(PS Chirac was clearly in the right i promise you, lol)

]]> By: Martha http://italy.theoffside.com/serie-a/the-morning-after.html#comment-26459 Martha Tue, 13 Nov 2007 13:07:46 +0000 http://italy.theoffside.com/serie-a/the-morning-after.html#comment-26459 Steve -- you're very welcome, I'm glad I was able to help a little bit. Steve — you’re very welcome, I’m glad I was able to help a little bit.

]]> By: Steven http://italy.theoffside.com/serie-a/the-morning-after.html#comment-26449 Steven Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:09:16 +0000 http://italy.theoffside.com/serie-a/the-morning-after.html#comment-26449 Thank you Lisa. That was exactly what i meant. Thank you Lisa. That was exactly what i meant.

]]> By: Lisa http://italy.theoffside.com/serie-a/the-morning-after.html#comment-26442 Lisa Tue, 13 Nov 2007 08:48:42 +0000 http://italy.theoffside.com/serie-a/the-morning-after.html#comment-26442 Thierry, stop dragging the Holocaust into it. It's needlessly incendiary in a discussion of football violence.(Also, malediction does not mean what you think it means.) But either way, you're misreading Steven's argument. He didn't trivialize anything. He said that the issue of football violence is not something easy for Americans to understand because there is no analogue for it in American sporting culture. If you have an example to disprove that statement, I'd love to hear it. And out of curiosity, where are you from? Thierry, stop dragging the Holocaust into it. It’s needlessly incendiary in a discussion of football violence.(Also, malediction does not mean what you think it means.)

But either way, you’re misreading Steven’s argument. He didn’t trivialize anything. He said that the issue of football violence is not something easy for Americans to understand because there is no analogue for it in American sporting culture. If you have an example to disprove that statement, I’d love to hear it.

And out of curiosity, where are you from?

]]> By: Steven http://italy.theoffside.com/serie-a/the-morning-after.html#comment-26439 Steven Tue, 13 Nov 2007 08:12:18 +0000 http://italy.theoffside.com/serie-a/the-morning-after.html#comment-26439 Thierry: "In fact most of europeans had choosen a facist leader who incarnated their taste for violence, and their hatred" You can't possibly mean something like this? I've lived in Europe all my life, and this is complete and utter bullshit. Belgium, Holland, Norway, England...all monarchies with a leftist touch for the past 60-70 years. France had left-wing presidents up to Chirac, Sweden: left wing. If you want to believe we're all neo-nazis, fine by me. Now stop the bullshit and concentrate on football. Thierry: “In fact most of europeans had choosen a facist leader who incarnated their taste for violence, and their hatred”

You can’t possibly mean something like this? I’ve lived in Europe all my life, and this is complete and utter bullshit. Belgium, Holland, Norway, England…all monarchies with a leftist touch for the past 60-70 years. France had left-wing presidents up to Chirac, Sweden: left wing. If you want to believe we’re all neo-nazis, fine by me. Now stop the bullshit and concentrate on football.

]]> By: Steve Amoia http://italy.theoffside.com/serie-a/the-morning-after.html#comment-26414 Steve Amoia Tue, 13 Nov 2007 03:03:47 +0000 http://italy.theoffside.com/serie-a/the-morning-after.html#comment-26414 Martha: Thank you for the excellent work on this tragic event. Tanti auguri, Steve Amoia Martha:

Thank you for the excellent work on this tragic event.

Tanti auguri,

Steve Amoia

]]> By: Thierry http://italy.theoffside.com/serie-a/the-morning-after.html#comment-26390 Thierry Tue, 13 Nov 2007 00:11:46 +0000 http://italy.theoffside.com/serie-a/the-morning-after.html#comment-26390 What are we talking about ? Are we talking about good fathers with their families who love football? Or are we talking about the grow of violence in football in Europe? For me there is no doubt, the grow of this violence has links with the grow of extreme right ideas in Europe. Sure depite my ignorance, i know the regional rivalries especially in Italy, but i know too how they were and are exacerbated and used by extreme right. Don't you think weird that you could find nowadays the same racist and xenophobic slogan towards south italians in the mouth of some ultras of north clubs than those of Lega Nord per l'indipendenza della Padania. Don't you find weird the way in numerous european stadiums an unknown serbian general(neo nazi and war criminal) had been celebrated. Steven, First i was deeply shocked by the way you try to trivialized (It’s just something that is typically European(...)" you americans can't understand) such demonstrations of violence. Two, i think you didn't understand what i mean. "(..)have a fascist leader or government." In fact most of europeans had choosen a facist leader who incarnated their taste for violence, and their hatred...It wasn't like if it was an accident, or a malediction, most of the time, it was a choice, made by them.And the holocaust wasn't a secret accident of History, but a deliberate choice, and if the antisemits weren't so numerous it couldn't be possible. My point could appear bullshit to you but it' s very clear. In psychology like in history when some problems are denied, they finish by reappear again, in the same or a different form. Have you ever asked yourself why and how europeans were able to this violence in the ideas and in the acts ? Beyond me, if you can with depth answer to this question you will able to understand the grow of violence in Europe nowadays. Deep Identity crisis beyond me. Most of people don't want to study history especially the dark moments but prefer to consider its like a bad memory you must forget. The common point with Europe during 30's and the present Europe, in my opinion is this deep identity crisis. Young men organize little wars (symbolic or real) between their countries, their regions, their cities, their villages, their areas, their clubs, because they don't know who or what they are. Italy bought itself a cheap illusion with Berlusconi, like France did with Sarkozy,.. but i m afraid it won't be sufficient. Aa band of guys who are ready to hunt another one because "he 's different" sorry if it remind me of dark things. This was my a part of my point. Martha, certainly and fortunatly all ultras aren't Neo nazi, facist, whatever we name them, and if i admit you can be an ultra and a cool personn, there are some little things in the ultra movement which disturb me. First what make a difference betwenn an ultra band and a fan who is not an ultra. Correct me if i m wrong but there is in the ultra move the idea "to give all for the club", "to give more than the common fan(fan already come from fanatic). And as i saw many time there is the idea to make a kind of family, with the idea of exclusion of all weren't a part of his family. and of course to definitate an identity many ultras will tell you there are others(group of ultras, other clubs) they can't stand. I think these ideas could be dangerous in the mind of young idle men. What are we talking about ? Are we talking about good fathers with their families who love football? Or are we talking about the grow of violence in football in Europe?
For me there is no doubt, the grow of this violence has links with the grow of extreme right ideas in Europe.
Sure depite my ignorance, i know the regional rivalries especially in Italy, but i know too how they were and are exacerbated and used by extreme right. Don’t you think weird that you could find nowadays the same racist and xenophobic slogan towards south italians in the mouth of some ultras of north clubs than those of Lega Nord per l’indipendenza della Padania. Don’t you find weird the way in numerous european stadiums an unknown serbian general(neo nazi and war criminal) had been celebrated.

Steven,
First i was deeply shocked by the way you try to trivialized (It’s just something that is typically European(…)” you americans can’t understand) such demonstrations of violence.
Two, i think you didn’t understand what i mean. “(..)have a fascist leader or government.” In fact most of europeans had choosen a facist leader who incarnated their taste for violence, and their hatred…It wasn’t like if it was an accident, or a malediction, most of the time, it was a choice, made by them.And the holocaust wasn’t a secret accident of History, but a deliberate choice, and if the antisemits weren’t so numerous it couldn’t be possible. My point could appear bullshit to you but it’ s very clear. In psychology like in history when some problems are denied, they finish by reappear again, in the same or a different form. Have you ever asked yourself why and how europeans were able to this violence in the ideas and in the acts ?
Beyond me, if you can with depth answer to this question you will able to understand the grow of violence in Europe nowadays.
Deep Identity crisis beyond me. Most of people don’t want to study history especially the dark moments but prefer to consider its like a bad memory you must forget. The common point with Europe during 30’s and the present Europe, in my opinion is this deep identity crisis. Young men organize little wars (symbolic or real) between their countries, their regions, their cities, their villages, their areas, their clubs, because they don’t know who or what they are. Italy bought itself a cheap illusion with Berlusconi, like France did with Sarkozy,.. but i m afraid it won’t be sufficient. Aa band of guys who are ready to hunt another one because “he ’s different” sorry if it remind me of dark things. This was my a part of my point.
Martha, certainly and fortunatly all ultras aren’t Neo nazi, facist, whatever we name them, and if i admit you can be an ultra and a cool personn, there are some little things in the ultra movement which disturb me. First what make a difference betwenn an ultra band and a fan who is not an ultra. Correct me if i m wrong but there is in the ultra move the idea “to give all for the club”, “to give more than the common fan(fan already come from fanatic). And as i saw many time there is the idea to make a kind of family, with the idea of exclusion of all weren’t a part of his family. and of course to definitate an identity many ultras will tell you there are others(group of ultras, other clubs) they can’t stand. I think these ideas could be dangerous in the mind of young idle men.

]]> By: mele419 http://italy.theoffside.com/serie-a/the-morning-after.html#comment-26378 mele419 Mon, 12 Nov 2007 23:19:53 +0000 http://italy.theoffside.com/serie-a/the-morning-after.html#comment-26378 Sofia, you've said it well. And Martha, thanks, you've done a great job keeping us all up to date on everything. Dunno what I'd do without your wonderful blogging! Time to wait it out, see how everything plays out, and go from there... Sofia, you’ve said it well.

And Martha, thanks, you’ve done a great job keeping us all up to date on everything. Dunno what I’d do without your wonderful blogging!

Time to wait it out, see how everything plays out, and go from there…

]]> By: sofia http://italy.theoffside.com/serie-a/the-morning-after.html#comment-26370 sofia Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:31:22 +0000 http://italy.theoffside.com/serie-a/the-morning-after.html#comment-26370 this is really sad and a disgrace on the italian poilce force and on italian soccer. the fans need to realize that there is a fine line between passionate and psycho and that they crossed that line a long time ago. RIP GABRIELE... always missed but never forgotten this is really sad and a disgrace on the italian poilce force and on italian soccer. the fans need to realize that there is a fine line between passionate and psycho and that they crossed that line a long time ago.

RIP GABRIELE… always missed but never forgotten

]]> By: Martha http://italy.theoffside.com/serie-a/the-morning-after.html#comment-26362 Martha Mon, 12 Nov 2007 21:49:52 +0000 http://italy.theoffside.com/serie-a/the-morning-after.html#comment-26362 Thanks a lot Brian, both for the link and your kind words; just added you blog to my feeds, I'm sorry I'd not seen it until now. mele, it's my assumption that, just like the two suspended ones, the abandoned match will be played. As Chris pointed out in a recent post, the problem with scheduling them is the return of the Coppa Italia, European matches, and the winter break -- Inter, for example, already have six matches in December. So it's likely to be a while before the three matches are played. Thanks a lot Brian, both for the link and your kind words; just added you blog to my feeds, I’m sorry I’d not seen it until now.

mele, it’s my assumption that, just like the two suspended ones, the abandoned match will be played. As Chris pointed out in a recent post, the problem with scheduling them is the return of the Coppa Italia, European matches, and the winter break — Inter, for example, already have six matches in December. So it’s likely to be a while before the three matches are played.

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